[quote=“mikeellwood, post:3773, topic:3153”]
This would seem to be related to German “kennen” which is to know a person or a place (or more generally, to be familiar with someone or something), although I think Scots “ken” might have come from Scandinavian, rather than German per se.[/quote]
Yup: Old Norse is kenna for “be familiar with, recognise”; Old English has cunnan for “know, be familiar with, know how to”, whence “I can” (formerly “I know how to”, now “I am able to”). Past participle couth, whence "uncouth*. Old English also has cnawan “to know” (also oncnawan, to recognise) from the same gno- root as Latin cognosco etc. – whence “gnomic”.
Again, yes: it’s also Old Norse ek veit, Old English ic wat, Gothic ik wáit as in modern English “God wot”. Wit and witness are also related to wisdom, all originally meaning “(I know because) I have seen”, like the vidi of Caesar’s veni, vidi, vici and, indeed, video as in ‘games’
Also, interestingly enough: the gŵydd that @Toffidil referred to above is from this same video/vision root; and the GPC entry for adnabod gives an etymology that refers the syllable -na- back to the same -gno- root as ‘know’.
Yes – the early accounts may not be trustworthy, but they appear to match up fairly well with the dialects that we can see in placenames and later texts, in that the “Anglo-Saxons (and Jutes)” seem to have spoken a mix of related and mutually comprehensible dialects. Traditionally the Angles are supposed to have come from Angeln (around Schleswig-Holstein/Northern Germany-Southern Denmark, I believe); the Saxons from a bit further south; and the Jutes from Jutland. However, I think there’s more modern evidence to suggest some Frisian in the mix, too, which gets left out of the traditional accounts.
At any event, there were different dialects within Old English, some of which went back to a time even before they’d ever invaded/settled in Britain. Northumbrian was quite distinctive from the get-go, and was, of course, the dialect that bordered (and included parts of) southern Scotland: it’s my understanding that the ‘English’ dialect that became later Scots is basically Northumbrian in origin, and some of the difference between Scots and English can be attributed to that. (In addition to any influences from the Hen Ogledd, the Scots from Ireland, and whatever kind of Celtic the Picts probably spoke!)
Catrin would say ‘Dwi’n nabod y gair ond dwi’m yn gwybod ei ystyr’ - and so would I, but I would probably have picked that up from her, so she might be an outlier on this. Having said that, if I hadn’t read all this careful thought about it, I’m fairly sure that I would have confidently predicted that ‘nabod y gair’ was a normal usage…
Diolch! That’s what I wanted to say, but wasn’t sure of - so I suspect that if I let my French-based instincts guide me I’ll probably still make mistakes, but probably fewer than if I rely on learning rules in English
Just a quick question which still gets me after all these years…I learned long ago that “it is generally considered incorrect” to follow ‘pan’ with ‘mae’ and rather that ‘bod’ or ‘bydd’ should be used, and with a soft mutation. For e.g. “Pan fo’r golau’n goch” as seen on roadwork signs or “pan fydd meddygion yn dost.”
Yet in SSIW we use ‘pan mae’ frequently. Any reason? Diolch
Thanks Aran. I guessed as much. It came from the Linguaphone course which was my first real introduction to Welsh. It tends to be quite formal as I’m sure you know! I still love it though, as all the stories and places it’s based on have become immortalised by my learning the language. I managed to get a pristine set on eBay. Nice to now be able to understand every word in it!
Yes, I think I realised my mistake about 10 seconds after pressing reply. Should have said the sentence out loud before asking question!!! Diolch yn fawr
And I should have said “…byddi di’n etifeddu’r daear,” but it’s only just occurred to me now.
(And, contrary to the usual spirit of the forum, I’m not going to translate that straight away because it’d spoil the joke, such as it is. I’ll translate it if I get told off, I s’pose )
Is this the north Walian teacher? I have a friend here from the north (maybe Môn) who has the same attitude, and gets really irate with her kids for using gyda. But it’s a dialect thing. To her “gyda” means “together with” (it’s literal meaning). But to say that “gyda” is worng is like falling out over “medru” and “gallu”, which should both mean different things, but don’t generally in speech.
In thsi case, the French is a good guide for nabod / gwybod. It’s an easy rule fo thumb to talk about people and things, but adnabod can also correspond to recognise, and have a deep knowledge of something. So you can adnabod a road that you have driven along every day for years, or adnabod a village that you were brought up in.
I would see the connaitre in your sentence, Richard, as “recognise” rather than “know”, actually - but that may be me shading the French according to my Welsh…
So did I! (I’m afraid the play on words occurred to me in English - my ability to think of bad jokes in Welsh is mercifully still limited by insufficient vocabulary.)
@RichardBuck has it right. It’s “os ti’n moyn” and it means “if you want”. Misstyped and a bit missthought. I sometimes type and think too fast and stick “w” where it shouldn’t be and don’t put it where it should be.
Actually it’s my daughter who says this, more than the teacher! She’s fairly keen on superciliously correcting me, so I don’t take it too seriously! (I prefer them to speak Welsh, but point out anything they don’t like the sound of, than not speak Welsh. Also the ‘corrections’ are interesting!)
@Iestyn, I always imagined that your parents were first language speakers, so I was surprised to hear on the radio the other day that your mum learnt imperfectly when you were a kid. That made me wonder whether your dad spoke Welsh as a first language? Just curious / nosey!
No, my mother was English - from East Anglia - and spoke no Welsh until she learnt when I was 7 or 8. My father was brought up in Port Talbot and London. His mother (my Nana) spoke perfect Ceredigion Welsh (she was from Glynarthen, a few miles from Tresaith, but her father was from a Morriston / Landore family). Unfortunately, his father was from Newport, Gwent, and his only Welsh was “Mae’r iaith Gymraeg yn anodd iawn”, sung to a tune that ended “Tarara boom di ay”.So while my dad speaks Welsh, he’s never been particularly confident in it. Happy to preach in Welsh (in chapel, that is), but not really have very wide ranging conversations.
So, my Welsh is a combination of Nana’s Ceredigion / Swansea Welsh, a big dose of the beautiful Welsh spoken by the old people of Rhymney when I used to spend time there with my father, as well as all the activities and Welsh speaking friends that my far-sighted parents steered me towards.
