Me, too! What do you think of the book? Is it worth buying?
1 Like
I enjoyed Cysgod yn y Coed. Itās a collection of nine short stories. They are varied and mostly quite light. The blurb on the back suggests that they are suitable for people who have been learning for one or two years. They are definitely on my list for reading again. Yes, I would recommend the book. (And I too am waiting for the day when I understand without translating, @maeganlanger)
Sue
2 Likes
Another one here. Initially Danish, more recently Norwegian. They have a lot in common - almost identical in writing. Very different in pronunciation. Iād say Scandinavian is both easy in some ways (lot of common / similar words; easy grammar), but difficult in others (pronunciation / listening).
Edit: Iāve never studied Swedish as such, but watched lots of Swedish Scandi-noir, and I know itās also fairly closely related, but just not quite as close as Norwegian and Danish are to each other (for obvious reasons when you look at the history).
Icelandic is a direct descendant of Old Norse, and, superficially at least, quite different from the above three. Quite difficult grammar for one thing, I gather. No doubt if you dug under the surface, similarities would be uncovered, but I suspect I wonāt get around to it. There have been a few Icelandic ānoirsā on TV though, and one well-known comedy.
Finnish, I gather, is from a different language group and bears no similarity to the above four whatsoever. (But Swedish is also spoken in parts of Finland and, I think, taught in schools).
On the more general issue of thinking in a foreign language (or not), there is an even wider question as to how much we need language in order to think. Itās a question Iāve never been able to get fully straight in my mind. No doubt itās been studied, somewhere. There are things like instinct and emotion going on, that do not need / cannot be put into words.
1 Like
Thatās an interesting post, thank you. I find languages fascinating, how they relate or not, especially in relative small spaces like the UK, or Scandinavia. Yes that would be interesting, how would we think without languages. As a smallholder (nice sheep by the way) I wonder what is going on, how do they relate to us. Got an old German friend in Italy, her dogs respond to 3 languages! If you find out please let me know
1 Like
This may not be exactly what you have in mind, but itās the sort of question that the philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein spent a lot of time addressing, and thereās nothing easy about his answers! He linked it to what has been called the Private Language Argument: is it possible to have a private language, i.e. a language only you and nobody else could understand? And his answer, basically: no itās not.
Itās a very long time since I studied him but I think his answer to your specific question - do we need language in order to think - would be yes, and thatās certainly how I would see it. Thinking is a form of language and would not be possible without it. Many living creatures have instincts and emotions and of course can communicate in all sorts of ways, but are not able to conceptualise in the true sense of the word when we use terms such as ālanguageā or āthinkingā.
No easy references come to mind, but googling āwittgenstein private languageā or āwittgenstein thinking without languageā will bring up some searchable (albeit quite difficult) material.
2 Likes
@mikeellwood question reminded me of this video I saw recently. not an answer to his question, but still in topic, I would say.
1 Like
For another viewpoint - that it is possible to have thought without language - this video with Noam Chomsky is very accessible:
3 Likes
Agreed. I like the short stories because you can practice in smaller bites without being overwhelmed by a novel-length narrative when youāre starting out. āE-ffrindiauā is another good one by Lois Arnold too. I didnāt enjoy it as much as Cysgod, but itās great reading practice.
Yes, I like Ffenestri, also by Lois Arnold, for the same reason. I have to confess that I have never got round to finishing e-Ffrindiau, although it is very good when you first start reading.
Dolch am y rhannu y llfyr (thank you for sharing the book!)
1 Like
A lot of the thinking I do is wordless. Itās sort of a swirl of images and feelings, and when I write fiction, I run what is basically a mental movie of whatās happening and then find the words to describe the scene and the action.
I do think in words, of course, and I like to practice doing that sort of thinking in Welsh because it highlights gaps in my vocabulary. I do more of that sort of thinking when Iām out walking and pondering things or noticing whatās going on around me.
5 Likes
Interesting, even though I do not agree with LWās statement. You can have a private language only you know, but the one thing that would not happen is communication. Makes it a bit pointlessā¦
As to animals, being a smallholder, I can distinguish between different sounds they make, the chucks are the best! But somehow canāt get my head around them making those sounds internallyā¦my dog responds to out just as easily as masā¦
1 Like
Hi @sabine, Yes you can make up your own private language that you donāt share with anybody, and some people have often done this. I think LWās point is that you can only do this when you already have language i.e. you must have learnt a language in relationship with others first. You couldnāt learn to speak a language all by yourself from infanthood. Likewise, the private language that you make up later may be one that you keep to yourself and donāt share with others - but it wouldnāt be a language that in principle other people couldnāt learn if they were exposed to it. Hope this makes sense!
I take your point about various animals and pets - maybe the theory doesnāt apply to them!! 
1 Like
Hi AlanP, thanks for clarifying this interesting topic. And yes it makes sense, bit like what came first the chicken or the egg! 
Never thought learning Welsh could open up so many interesting topics, and was concerned working online be lonely! Donāt think I have had as much human contact like this for a long time!
Ah now I think animals are a lot smarter than we humans often give them credit for! 
3 Likes
@sabine Yes I agree, itās extraordinary the range of topics that come up on this forum, and the various fields of knowledge that come into play!
2 Likes
Hi Sabine, I know it has been a while since this post but I wanted to say this forum has represented most of my human contact recently, too. I have been quite isolated the last two years, and the wonderful people here have reminded me of the good in humanity.
I hope your Welsh learning journey is going well and that you are learning lots!
2 Likes
Hi Sasha, thank you for your kind message. Never too late to contact somebody!!! 
If you want to change your situation, here is your chance. Even though I live in an isolated location I do love socialising. Do you live in Wales? I luckily do. Welsh learning has been put on hold because of major upheaval at home (building works) but hope to start again next week, luckily our lovely Dee informed there is a pause button, has taken the stress out of things.
3 Likes
Hello @sabine ! I wish I lived in Wales, but I live in Californiaā¦ lovely, but I have never really felt at home here. I lived in London for a year, and when it came time to return āhomeā I was devastated. That was 26 years ago, and I still plot and plan to make my return one day! Not to London, but to the land of my ancestors (I am about 85-90% from the British isles, between my Welsh, Irish, Scottish, and English heritage, alongside a smattering of Viking and Norman).
I am so glad there is a pause button to take some of the stress away from the upheaval you are going through at home! What a relief! Pob lwc!
1 Like