Just to add to the discussion…In the Southern course, we use yn before moyn - sa i’n moyn mynd or do’n i ddim yn moyn mynd. So, many differences in dialect and region, it seems - so definitely paid becso amdani
I’m in the South
I think I remember Iestyn saying said he had to think before deciding to use “yn” before “moyn”.
(Apologies if I am incorrect.)
IMHO, no “yn” would have been the (very very very very very very…[deep breath] very very very very very) slightly better way of doing it for the course.
Iestyn obviously disagrees, and that is great! It may well be more natural to his dialect, individual way of speaking, or he thinks it should be used in the course for some other reason.
Certainly nothing to worry about.
But then, who is going to agree with every single thing any course does?
Well I was certainly not given enough to speak Welsh, but a teasing amount to make things a bit frustrating. I got early years immersion in hearing Welsh in the background or between relatives, but only occasionally directly to me. Where I live now it is so common for people of my age to have at least one parent who is a first language Welsh speaker and Grandparents who only spoke Welsh.
I think that means there are a lot of people who have pretty good hearing when it comes to Welsh being spoken and many words are very familiar friends even if the meanings of some of the words or phrases can sometimes be a bit elusive.
It could just be a case of ¨phonetic assimilation¨ whereby -n + m- comes out in normal speech as -mm-. Then whether you ´think´ you´re saying the ´n´ or not depends upon how you subconsciously ´analyse´ what you´re saying. If you think of ´moyn´ as still being a verb (verbal noun/present participle to get technical) then you probably ´hear´ the ´n´.
A useful mental trick perhaps, when learning a language, at least to give yourself confidence, is to tell yourself, ¨I know this, It´s just slipped my mind for a moment¨. So if you get stuck in conversation, instead of saying, ¨I´m a beginner, I don´t think we´ve covered that yet¨, you say (to yourself or even out loud), ¨Sorry, my Welsh is a bit rusty …¨
Now from what you say, for many of you that would actually be very close to the truth more often than not.
That quite possibly reinforces it. However, as I said above, there is no one in two minds about whether there is an “yn”/“n” before “mynd”. It probably mostly comes from the fact that people think of “moyn” as an equivalent/substitute for “eisiau”.
It’s a purposeful, noticeable, definite and on the appropriate occasion conscious absence of “yn” in many people’s minds, very different to other verbs starting with “m”.
And depending on who is speaking, and when, I can often hear the “n” before mynd.
Nothing right or wrong with leaving it out or putting it in with “moyn” though.
I agree absolutely. Mine is the opposite problem, stopping myself putting in an ´n´ before eisau/isio
i often wonder if the odd sound and letter here and there are just added for effect simply to give a bit of a bounce if you like - they can raise and lower the pitch nd have no grammatical significance whatsoever
Got an automatic cautionary note about reviving this old post but, as I discovered it by suddenly realizing that I could not find ‘moyn’ in a couple of dictionaries and googling it, it might still be of interest to others. I find things like knowing that moyn comes from ymofyn (to ask for) and that the ‘yn’ may not always be heard in everyone’s speech very interesting and oddly helpful. Also, as someone who loves both (+) dialects, it is good to have it mentioned that moyn and eisiau are not necessarily mutually exclusive and could be used in slightly different contexts ( assuming this is true?).
as an aside - when i looked up the root for eisiau once - it gave me a Latin word for “demand”. There is a modern Italian word derived from it, something like “esiger” I think.
I had never thought of eisiau as a relative of esigere (io esigo, etc.), but it makes sense!
Also the English verb to exact.
I am also wondering now about a link between Moyn and English/French demand (Old French demaunde) or maybe demandare or similar words in Italian. Moyn in Welsh is from Ymofyn, which is ym + gofyn (or before that Ym + go + mynnu). Mynnu in welsh is “insist or demand” and comes from a Proto Indo-European root *mendh. I can’t see that demand comes from the same root, but sounds possible?
If all that is true (@RichardBuck I’m not sure about demand etymology), then mendh has gone around the houses in Welsh to end up back at moyn, or maybe it never really changed that much in the first place.
That’s interesting. I did post something a while back wondering if moyn bore any relation to Cornish ‘My a fynn’. If you are right about ym+gofyn = ym+go+mynnu then surely it does when broken down that far?
maybe its the written welsh that has elaborated something over time that may always have remained a bit simpler in the spoken languages, from a time before they split - mynnu is still in Welsh of course and the difference between want/demand - moyn and insist/demand - mynnu is only a slight twist with both forms being expressed in English with demand.
Without wanting to bore you and everyone else with yet more, I just noticed that Breton uses a similar word for “determined to” “decided upon” which are ways of saying “want to”. The Breton word is “mennet”.
Ha sur oc’ h bezañ mennet da zilemel ar gont ?
Are you sure you want to delete the account?
I’m now wondering about decide in Welsh - penderfynu?-but in that case the dictionary says something else, so maybe just a coincidence? .
Not boring at all - I did re-bump this post so I’m glad someone is interested! GPC gives Pen+terfynaf/nu. As the first definition of terfynaf/nu is to terminate could terfynu could be one of the Welsh words derived from Latin? terminare? Also the Breton does seem quite possibly connected as you suggest.
Yes GPC does say from Latin - terminus and it looks from the references to be a relatively new word in Welsh anyway - earliest reference 1650.
One word Welsh, Cornish (I think) and Breton share is chwant ch’oant’, want for “want or desire” and that’s not an English borrowing even though it feels like one.
It was common in middle welsh to modify words with dy- which was a bit like using i today for to. Dod came from this route, via dyfod (dy +bod) Mynnu has been modified in welsh with addition of dy- etc for dyfynny, dyfyn (demand, summon the presence of), not sure that word is still in use today though, no references after 1850.
Yes, that’s what got me started on these comparisons, I’m afraid: Connections with other languages
Well, it sounded plausible to me, but apparently not: it’s clearly de + mandō, but Wiktionary reckons mandō (as in command/demand etc., rather than the other one that’s related to mandible) comes from manus ‘hand’ + dō ‘I give’ in the sense of entrusting something to someone.
On the other hand that does remind me that the word for ‘believe’ in Latin crēdō is an old compound of the dō with the root of the word cord- ‘heart’ – something I give my heart to or put my heart in. I knew it existed in Indic languages, but I just looked up credu in the GPC and they reckon it’s the same root independently inherited in Celtic, rather than borrowed from Latin.
Thanks Richard - I should have carried on posting in your other thread and will do after this. I have a feeling that a big problem is trying to date things - the language splits etc - it makes a big difference to the family trees for the languages and what decended from what.
A lot of the reconstructions are starting with the assumption of the original Kurgan hypothesis, which is definitely not without a lot of dispute and then dating the original date and then almost arbitrarily assigning when the other proto-languages formed. Was proto celtic 800BC, 1200BC, 2500BC or even 3500BC. Was the original PIE 3500BC 6000 BC or 8000BC?
These dates change all the computer models dramatically and no one seems to agree, because no one really knows. It seems to me, that we know how things change in a general sense, but in which order and when is important and I suspect that we don’t know that very well.