@henddraig I had forgotten about cariad@iaith which seemed great from what I have seen of it. One thing I think that could have been better from what I have seen of that method used elsewhere is for them to have created human personas and not animal. A few times throughout the course I felt they were a bit uncomfortable with their animal persona, where a human one would have been more natural. I also think that because so much of it was based around this animal theme that a lot of the language used would have given them confidence in that setting but left them less confident trying to get their words out in a shop, for example, with a queue forming behind them. At that point I donât think imagining themselves as a timid hedgehog creeping around in a forest would be the mindset they need. I watched a few episodes a while ago, but tired of this theme. I donât know if it was continued or not. Otherwise a great method that I think could just do with a bit of tweaking.
Iâm not sure I even watched all that series. Most of the others did not, I seem to recall, involve imagining you were a hedgehog, although itâs some time since I watched them. I think they were trying to make the programs different for the TV audience, so came up with all sorts of ideas. Certainly human personas were used in more than one series, I think! The basic point was to have a lot of repetition so words were rammed into memories, This was followed by activities to use Cymraeg outside the classroom. It might not be practicable for most evening classes to decamp to the local pub and practice serving behind the bar or collecting glasses, but some ideas might work!
Iâm glad you replied @henddraig, Iâve just checked and your right; from a quick look through youtube it was only that one series that used that theme. I was just unlucky that it was that particular series I came across. I think Iâll have a look through the others now.
The things you sometimes overhearâŠ
Another issue I have with the Welsh for adults programme is that the out of classroom opportunities only run during term time and are 90% of the time during working hours.
The more intensive programmes they run are 2-4 weeks long and entirely working hours based.
The only group this appears to target are the retired.
There are some great suggestions on here.
Coincidentally, I was thinking along the lines of something Aran has mentioned, a kind of âDydd Cymraegâ: am not sure about the frequency of the event, but it could take the form of like Aran said: where people are encouraged to give a basic salutationâŠand for fluent speakers to really promote themselves in the lines of work they do e.g. in a supermarket, make it prominent that the employees who speak Welsh are equally identifiable, and encouraged to use Cymraeg. Also pipe through a bit of contemporary Welsh music in the background as well, where the line of work enables it?
There was also reference made on here to using successes where they have happened globally (e.g. any successes basque country or bilingual schooling in Ireland), which Ithink is good information to draw on.
My other point is the identification of the Welsh learnerâŠand administering encouragement as much as possible! It is likely that your typical adult Welsh Learner is someone who generally has strong personal reasons for learning, or coming back to learning the language - be it identifying with personal cultural reasons, the heritage itself of the language, the challenge of a new language, nostalgia, whatever. And with these reasons invariably comes a desire to see the language flourish.
A look at the messages on this thread (and the forum as a whole) is a good example: the energy and the initiative that accompany a lot of the postings I see and the effort that people have put in when it comes to learning and promoting the language is brilliant (e.g. the effort that people made in arranging to meet at the eisteddfod and to identify themselves)- makes me feel guilty in that I usually manage only a posting about once a month on here! Bilingual schooling provides a good foundation; but when being schooled in the language as part of a curriculum, I feel that learners at a young age would likely approach the language differently when compared to the adult welsh learner: someone who has come to the language later and with the different feelings and strong motivations toward it that I alluded to above. So, I would say that identifying the adult learners who have come forward to learn the language, and then retaining and encouraging them on the learner journey is invaluable: a potential for real energy and direction to be tapped into.
As a follow on: perhaps a âddyd dysgwrâ, encouraging Welsh learners to display their âlearner statusâ more often (I intend to buy a T-shirt from the SSiW website to this effect!)âŠand in turn encouraging any Welsh speakers to come forward and initiate a welcoming âsâmae!ââŠand take it from there?
This is 100%, the reason that most people like myself have never been to one. Basically for over 30s, learning has to be in short snippets on-line here and there - to fit personal lives. It has to be something that can be done during a commute to and from work. It has to be in those brief daily contacts with people in Post Offices, supermarkets and the local general shop round the corner - also after about eight at night down the pub and in restaurants or where people take their kids to play or dogs to walkâŠ
These are the sorts of constraints for most people and we have to work out how to deliver something within those constraints - SSIW does fortunately work in short blasts here and there - without SSIW I would not have been able to contemplate learning Welsh as an adult. Radio Cymru works, music works - Skype is a bit awkward for me, but works for many. We need bite-sized, stuff - the language equivalent of fast-food and coffee on the go. Also we need it on English TV as well as S4C.
All these have happened and I think most people know these things, but we just need more and more of it. Also it should be challenging, to get that sense of achievement and it has to be fun.
Wales itself is a project grounded in the Welsh language.
Walesâs present political manifestation has no prior modern antecedence. Wales was a part of England effectively until the Assembly only being recognised at all since absorption in Tudor times first by the translation of the Bible into Welsh, to help ensure the Reformation in Wales and help keep the back door into England firmly closed and then as a special entity again at the end of the nineteenth century in the act establishing Welsh grammar schools.
Apart from religious and sporting affiliations all parts of Wales connect West to East and never North to South. The idea there is in reality an entity called the Welsh economy is an absurd fiction as South East Wales connects commercially and even socially with the West of England and North Wales with Manchester and Liverpool. Ideally transport links North and South might help create a real connexion between North and South and the growth of social media may also achieve this. This disconnect geographical, economic, social and linguistic together with the porousness of the border with England together with disinterest and apathy are the enemies of the project 2050.
Attempts to bring languages back from the brink of extinction have almost always failed as projects. Only Hebrew for very special reasons has been wholly successful but Welsh has been hailed as a language in recovery. This recovery is fragile and setting a target is a useful way of focussing minds. It has two elements firstly language acquisition but as important is keeping and making Welsh a language of everyday life.
The halt in the decline of the language is a substantial achievement and the target of a million speakers by 2050 is admirable but needs detailed specification and support. Broadly speaking it seems Welsh is being successful outside Wales, in parts of Wales where it was previously in steep decline or hardly existed ,but is having problems in several of the older heartlands where in migration as a result of differential house prices in attractive rural and coastal areas has a most worrying negative effect and if not dealt with will destroy the places where Welsh has traditionally been the language of everyday life.
As the planning system has been used to protect the natural and physical environment so consideration of its use to protect the linguistic environment before it is too late and the heartlands are lost with inevitable consequences for Welsh in traditional areas. There are obviously substantial objections to such a policy in a Liberal democracy and changes need to be very fine tuned and properly argued for and executed. In Wales there is this special important lingusitic twist to the distortion of the housing market by incomers with deep pockets mainly from the South East of England. .
On the other hand Welsh is already a world language. At the moment the number of speakers beyond Wales is unknown but substantial. Over 50,000 first language speakers perhaps 100,000 Also Welsh is the oldest language in Great Britain and after Basque one of the oldest in Europe.It is part of a heritage of other Britons. Welsh people are and will probably be geographically mobile globally and support for the language, by whatever means, really needs to look beyond Wales itself. Within the time frame suggested Education could successively migrate to the internet and consideration should be given to a complete Welsh learning packages adaptable for children and adults to learn and improve their knowledge of Welsh and available worldwide.
Need and opportunity are the factors facilitating language acquisition. Perception of need is influenced by many factors. In countries like Wales and Sweden where everyone will inevitably become fluent in English certain elements of perception and self worth are crucial.
Perception of the importance and status of the language can be overtly and subliminally reinforced by minor changes to the physical environment. Public sector signage has already made a difference but serious consideration should be given to a policy of enforcing bi lingual signage in the private sector too in stages completed by 2050.
Whilst Welsh language education has produced cohort of speakers it is often the case that children revert to English outside the school gates and after school. Consideration to how Welsh can improve its image amongst young people as something âcoolâ. As youth culture is generally counter culture by nature it maybe beyond the scope of policy to encourage it or is it? Making it possible to use Welsh in all sitiations should be aimed at.
Welsh is not an easy language for less able children coming from English speaking homes especially in predominently English areas. Care must be taken that they are sufficiently supported to ensure they are not suffering as a result of their parentâs choice. The choice of sending children to Welsh schools is a status as well as a patriotic choice.
Further are there any way Welsh ex pats and people in remote areas can have their children educated in boarding schools in Wales?
The majority of Citizens in Wales will still be predominantly English speakers and it is crucial to maintain and enhance the support of this group for the Welsh language and ensure that their education is of the highest standard and also gives Welsh and the history and culture of Wales its due.
There are still a group of articulate people who oppose the revival of the Welsh language on the grounds that it imposes unnecessary costs and is socially divisive. It is important to show that supporting the Welsh language neednât involve a gravy train of self appointed Taffia or be socially divisive.
So it is also vitally important to provide appropriate top quality Welsh language education in Schools where English is the principle medium of instruction. Reasonable competence in Welsh must be the right of all in Wales.THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING OF ALL . Welsh cannot be seen and taught as if it were a foreign language and it should be clearly connected with Welsh history and culture including, of course, the Anglo Welsh tradition. . The model for changes in Education in Wales might be Finland which has both Swedish and Finnish speaking areas and where all teachers are at least educated to masterâs level. Finland is reputed to produce the best educated population in Europe.Wales should aspire for master level entry to the teaching profession asap.
Communicative competence in spoken Welsh rather than mastering grammar rules should be the thrust of learning Welsh in English medium schools. Also all teachers in Wales of all subjects with rare exception should be expected to be confident and to always use Welsh as a natural and normal part of classroom management in all subjects and Welsh should normally be the meta language in Welsh lessons.
A test of the success of Welsh learning in non Welsh language schools would be that pupils could fairly comfortably transfer to Welsh language schools at early stages of their education with little or no futher induction.
Whilst Non Welsh speaking parents may wish to support and monitor their children in a Welsh language school by learning the language and others may wish to claim their cultural inheritance the pyramid of adult learners where few starters get to level Uwch is concerning and the approach needs rethinking. Connecting face to face learning with a fully on line system and encouraging fluent Welsh speakers to learn how to usefully support new speakers is necessary. Some slogan such as âThere is no such thing as bad Welshâ needs to be inculcated to adult learners and native speakers alike.
Finally a short sample module on Wales and the Welsh language should be made for inclusion in the syllabus of all schools in the UK outside Wales to give people outsideWales a better picture of the language and to enhance its status in the rest of the UKâŠ
This I couldnât agree with more! Last night I went to meet my fiancĂ©e and a friend of hers. They both started the conversation with me in English. Once we got home she said âRoedd hiân edrych ymlaen at siarad 'da ti yn Gymraegâ. The reason they didnât start the conversation was they were trying to be polite. My fiancĂ©e doesnât use her Welsh (Welsh speaking mother, meithrin, ysgol gynradd and gyfun) is because she doesnât feel sheâs very good at Welsh. A situation that doesnât concern her with her English. I get fed up when speaking to first language siaradwyr when the correct the Welsh I use because itâs not their dialect. I have a friend who regularly tells me (in English, whilst iâm speaking in Welsh) that I sound like a gog and should try and sound like a âWestyâ. These attitudes, as much as I love the people who have them, do not endear the language to the Di-Gymraeg.
A step away from perfect Welsh is essential! I have a tutor at Uwch who regularly emphasises âar lafarâ. We need more tutors like him.
Thanks for this link! The best bit I found was the Egyptian doctor saying that Welsh is not a difficult language!! That needs to be said more often!! @aran do you agree? Oh, and all the brilliant contributions to this thread, are all the posters actually replying to the Assembly Government, because if not, all they have put on here is wasted!
This is a very good point. There used to be programs on BBC1 Wales sort of challenging celebs to learn a bit of Welsh, but I donât remember when the last one was. Surely most people who donât speak Welsh watch BBC not S4C!!! So a version of Cariad@Iaith on the Beeb would be great!
To @raisonper Iâll have to read your contribution again to take it all in, but as far as I gotâŠsad, admitting truth reluctantly, then encouragedâŠoh, brilliantâŠcould you join the Senedd with special responsibility for the language? [quote=âraisonper, post:50, topic:5963â]
The model for changes in Education in Wales might be Finland
[/quote]
We have a young lady from Finland on the Forum. @Novem and she is learning Welsh with great success. Her English is excellent. so she seems a perfect example of the success of her countryâs Education methods!
To @Novem This is a long thread, but if you have any hints of the best way of increasing the number of Welsh speakers in Wales, go to the top of this thread and you will see the Government wants to know!!
Great point. This is such an obvious problem with the current provision! And surely something that is relatively easy to change.
maybe. I was also wondering about increasing the amounts of small snippets here and there - normal people talking in Welsh from time to time on the English news, with subtitles perhaps. I have seen news stories where S4C and BBC have interviewed the same person, who speaks in English on BBC news and Welsh on S4C - couldnât we hear it in Welsh on the BBC with subtitles?? (And not just BBC Wales - BBC news at 10 etc etc.)
Sorry if this has already been suggested and Iâve missed itâŠ
An obvious way to increase the number of Welsh speakers, would be to increase the number of Welsh medium school places. In North East Wales demand is hugh for a relatively small number of places.
I donât think there is anything too controversial about this. Demand is there. Perhaps the problem would be finding enough teachers.
If only that was the case.
Also, when it comes to parents making decisions about schools a lot of factors come into play - where is the school, how far away. Where do the other kids on the street go to. Welsh schools tend to be attractive based on their performance, but that is only a decisive factor if other EM schools close by are very poor, which more often than not is simply not the case. Many people can be faced with a choice between a very good EM school, that is nearby in which they will have friends living in the same street or to send a child five miles away to a WM school in an area they do not know very well and where their child will be different to other kids on the street. As a parent you would have to be very commited to make the second choice and many, many are, but for those where itâs more of a nice to do sort of thing then it will never be a valid option.
Hello!
Iâm supposed to be studying for tomorrowâs English exam, but instead I decided to spend my afternoon writing this and reading through everything here. Iâll just have to accept that I will get a not-so-good grade 
So, most of the things I wanted to say have already been said here, but I guess I could mention my opinion as a Finn learning Swedish at school, and also as someone who has lived in a country where most people only speak their countyâs own language, Italy.
As someone who has been in a Finnish school for most of the time Iâve spent studying, I absolutely hate Swedish. I guess Swedish is sort of our version of Welsh as a second language, and Iâm sorry to say that people really donât like studying it here. Our education system is good, but itâs not working as well as people outside of Finland say it is, or at least not in terms of languages. (That said, having also been to an Italian school, Finnish education is a lot better. A lot.)
Many Swedish people live in Finland and everyone in Finland has to learn Swedish at school. There is still the problem of confidence, though. Many - if not most - people my age, the ones who go to school and have to study Swedish, canât have a conversation, or even give or ask for directions in Swedish after having studied it for 6 years. (Now, I could just happen to be in the only class in Finland that is bad at Swedish, but Iâm assuming this is at least not uncommon). I donât want to hate Swedish, but this is getting pretty frustrating.
I think there are many problems that contribute to this. Firstly, the way we learn makes us just cram for the next exam and then immediately forget everything we learned. Obviously we can remember some basic stuff, like the numbers from 1 to about 999,999 (which are so useful when you canât even remember how to say âI would like two bars of chocolate, pleaseâ), how to say âhiâ, âbyeâ and some basic verbs, substantives and adjectives. For exams, we have to learn grammar and vocab that is only relevant to that one course, so when the next course starts we forget the earlier material and start again.
Secondly, you donât really hear Swedish that often if you donât live in a Swedish-speaking area. My old school used to be right next to a Swedish school, so I would hear some casual Swedish conversations at the bus stop (without understanding a singe word). Sometimes you hear some people speaking Swedish on the tram, and the most commonly seen Swedish is found on road signs (usually second, though itâs first in the areas with the highest percentages of Swedish speakers) and subtitles in cinemas.
Lastly, I guess history has something to do with it. This shouldnât really be a problem in Wales, actually itâs probably the opposite. I wonât go into much (or any) detail, but Finland has had some bad history with Sweden so we have some people who are still bitter.
The first problem could be fixed by having a more SSi-type of approach to language learning. Donât aim for perfection and all that stuff everyone has already mentioned.
That part ended up being longer than I meant it to beâŠ
tl;dr: Basically people in Finland who are not native speakers of Swedish, donât have friends/family or donât have use for Swedish (most people) canât and donât speak Swedish despite having âlearnedâ it at school.
English, however, is much more common here. That is definitely because of television, movies, social media and things like that. Almost everyone can speak it to some degree and can offer customer service in it if needed.
In Italy it is not so, in my experience. I was born and have lived there for slightly over half my life, so I think Iâm at least partly correct when I say that itâs very common for people to not be able to speak English at all (things might have changed a bit, I lived there seven years ago). I think this is also because of television, movies and all that stuff. In Finland, the media is mostly in English with Finnish and Swedish subtitles. For this reason people want to learn English because it is useful to them directly, even without having any friends who donât speak Finnish. In Italy the media is completely in Italian. Everything is dubbed and nobody ever hears English anywhere. Slightly exaggerating, I know, but my point is it doesnât feel useful to Italians.
Points that I was trying to make:
-As others have said, give people reasons to want to study Welsh. More movies, TV, books and things like that in Welsh. Sindarin, from the Lord of the Rings is based on Welsh! Welsh is easier to learn than English! This one actor from Game of Thrones speaks Welsh! (Not gonna lie, that last one is the reason I started getting interested in WelshâŠ)
-Forcing people to speak/learn it is bad. People will hate it and will not want to speak it when they donât have to.
-Change the way second languages are taught in school. I like the point about not calling it a second language, but it would still be taught like a second language. It honestly needs to focus less on perfection, because the way it is now, everybody is having mostly bad experiences with the language and no confidence to speak it.
-Use history to your advantage since you have the chance.
I apologize for the length (didnât mean for this to be this long, I canât summarize) and the lack of new stuff. This started turning into a rant at some point. I guess what I was trying to do was just to back some points other have made and possibly offer a different point of view. I donât know, I tried.
(Side note: Reading these has strengthened my desire to move to Wales and become a teacher 
)
5 posts were merged into an existing topic: A quick collection of off-topic stuff from the Government opinion thread
Apparently, Anglesea Council has got plans along these linesâŠ
A quick thought on what I think could be a very modern twist on studying the so-called classics and a subject that could be very useful for students applying to certain universities. What about something in the curriculum to inspire an interest in languages and how this links to culture, national identities and communication; covering the history of languages - Indo European and Non-Indo European.
This is something that could give context to languages and create a lifelong interest in languages. You could look at language families on the Indo-European side of things - including Greek, Latin, Celtic, Slavic and Germanic - also linking to things like Sanskrit etc.
Tolkein provides a great role model for someone who loved languages and became one of the most influential authors of the twentieth century - his love for languages created immense value on a global scale - once ranked by Forbes magazine as the fifth top earning âdead celebrityâ. Google translate provides an example of how knowledge of languages can lead to the creation of technology outlets that create and derive value, leading to career opportunities for those who have high level skills in understanding of linguistics and related IT skills.
You could also include people like Edward Lhuyd from a historical perspective and many, many more. A lot of the early linguists were also scientists - botany and physics, people like Thomas Young - famed for Youngâs Modulus in science. So many links it could be a very rich subject in terms of science, history and communication, not to mention the workings of the brain and psychology.
Being one of the few survivors of the Celtic languages, Welsh would have a prominent role and it would be a very useful subject to have alongside other languages as more discrete subjects.
This would be a very contemporary and valuable subject in our modern world of mass communication and social media - it does link very nicely in my mind. Things like coding at the end of the day are just contemporary languages, very, very useful, albeit never spoken. In my eyes, sciences are also languages and any subject that can consider all of these things from a language perspective would be a very valuable thing in the current era.
How does this link to the goal of 1 million Welsh speakers, well the key thing to learning languages is the motivation to learn. This provides a motivation to learn which is very outward looking in terms of understanding the importance of all languages. Students doing a subject like this should be motivated to learn languages from different language families and appreciate that this enhances their knowledge of communication and appreciation of other cultures. It is possible to export using solely English, but you can export better knowing local languages and cultures. Surely it is important when trying to understand other cultures that we also have in-depth knowledge of our own; this is surely a foundation step.
All of the worlds knowledge is wrapped up in languages - it is a part of the knowledge economy and it is important to understand that no single language can possibly encapsulate the breadth of human knowledge. Celtic languages have a place in understanding the modern wold and learning Welsh has significant importance, beyond our communities and our borders.
I donât believe itâs been mentioned earlier, but Y Lolfaâs bilingual book âGwneud y Pethau Bychain/Do the little thingsâ edited by Ffion Heledd Gruffudd could be good source of suggestions for what could be done to boost the language. While itâs principally aimed at what individuals can do in their own lives, this includes persuading schools, colleges, businesses etc to take on board a variety of suggestions which perhaps the government could equally press for âtop downâ.
More than likely any suggestions contained in the book would find their way into the consultation process anyway, but itâs usually wise not to take these things for granted!
I think your thoughts on micro-commitments is a great idea. It allows people that may feel âbeyond the learning yearsâ to be more comfortable with bite sized pieces of Welsh to learn.
I am Canadian and one thing that we do is have any mandatory information on labelling (warnings, directions for use etc) in both english and french. That way it becomes part of everyday life in an unobtrusive way but it reinforces the bilinguality of the country. I donât know if the labelling is the same in Wales, but it is a handy way to pick up vocabulary.
I think that it is very exciting that the Welsh government is looking at this. I wish that I was there.