Tatjana - progress reports

Yah. It might not be an option as I’ve done this already twice. It was approximately the saeme every time (or I am not able to measure my own progress or failure anymore, who knows).

Gee … I don’t know myself being so frustrated and willing to quit in my life and reading posts here from people who are older then me, this surely couldn’t be related to getting older. …

I really don’t think so, Tatjana. Disappointment with progress, uncrossable bridges, even setbacks happen at any age and possible depend more on how critical you are of yourself than how you are actually doing. You’ve had some very sound advice in this thread and I’d just like to add something from my own experience.

I’ve been helping and motivating my neighbour (approaching her 80s) to learn Welsh along with me for some time now and she often feels deflated and dissatisfied with her progress. My advice to her then is unconventional. Give up, I say! I immediately add, however, that she should only give up until she feels rested and remotivated. I let her know that I make my best progress when I’m having fun.

Although none of us know you and your circumstances, I would add my voice to the general consensus and suggest you stop beating yourself up about your progress. Ti’n gwneud yn gwych - dal ati. :thumbsup:


Tatjana, I am going to be stern and tell you to give yourself a break.

You keep mentioning that it was not so difficult when you learnt Croatian, German or Italian. Well, I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest firstly that Croatian is much closer to your native Slovene and therefore easier for you (probably really hard for me!) Secondly, did you learn German and Italian through the medium of Slovene? If so, then you cannot compare with your Welsh lessons, which are through the medium of English - a foreign language for you. I know you speak English excellently, but it does mean you have to work harder at the lessons than English native speakers do. So frankly, we should all be amazed at just how much you’ve accomplished.


@Millie I had a beautiful day today cellebrating my aunt and uncle’s 60th marriage anniversaty but this what I just read is something special. So was something special when @aran and some other people here said something similar to what you did but I just didn’t want to believe them. I kept in mind i’m doing lousy job with learning Cymraeg.

Yes, I’ve learnt Serbo-Croatian (be carefull with that as this was once in our united country one language but now it’s devided to two - Serbian and Croatian and native speakers are very touchy about that), Italian, English and German through Slovene medium. Actually Serbo-Croatian, Italian and English I’ve learnt in school.

I had half of a year of Serbo-Croatian alltogether with Cyrrilic script (however I don’t know to read and write too much anymore) in 5th grade of primary school, but this was practically “our” language as we lived in united country SFR of Yugoslavia. Half of a year was perfectly enough to gain some more knowledge and to be taught to write and read. This was 38 years ago.

So was the case with English just that we started in 5th grade and learnt it 3 years in primary school and 4 years in middle school. However I had a lot of (mostly written) conversations with people on messengers especially in the years inbetween 1995 and 2006 when I was practically glued to Yahoo, Skype etc (that’s why I’m so afraid to go with the flow of messengers and Skype again. I’m time eater not only of my but of others time aswell). However I’ve educated myself through those conversations to the perfection of writing (well, almost) with that (but speak I don’t as good as I write).

Italian I was also taught in middle school for 2 years however then I didn’t use it practically at all and I forgot everything. At least I thought I did but as I have a habut many times to amuse my co-workers with some foreign languages phrases or even flow of sentences (in Cymraeg too :slight_smile: ) I found out I didn’t even forget so much and I’d probably get back on track prety fast.

German I was forced to learn because my mother’s friend was married to German man and he didn’t speak (or didn’t want to speak, who knows) any language but German but even that German was pure Schwabisch dialect, very hard to understand and even harder to talk with that man as I found myself in situations when he didn’t understand me even if I spoke German and I could hardly understand him as he ate half of the words. German is the only language I’ve learnt through Slovene medium though but that was course on the cassettes which I had to go through on my own. I was strict, even more strict then I am here so it’s even more strange I didn’t feel such frustrations as I feel with Cymraeg.

So, yes, writing all this down here I’m realizing why you might be amazed. Maybe I could be too but probably if someone else would go through this process of learning that many languages the way I did …

It’s quite possible that I don’t look on the process of learning other language through English as kind of acheavement because it seams normal to me to learn through it. Many times English is as native language to me. i can think, I can write, i can talk, I can understand prety everything (as long as it isn’t dialect) and I was nowhere to experience native speakers to talk it. Yes, people, I was never further to the World then to Prague and Lloret de mar and surely never to UK.

But here we go. I’ve decided I really shouldn’t mind so much about how perfect (or not perfect) my Cmyraeg is. I’ll go to the basics again but not to repeat every lesson 100000000000 :slight_smile: times until it everything sticks in but a lesson a day. I might do some notes how much correct I can go through (as I’m really curious if everything is really as bad as I thought) and then I probably will be able to measure my success (or failure).

Not revolutionary finding though as it was everything already said and done here but rather the cognition that I should FINALLY obey my tutors and have to stop to be stubborn with repeating to myself all the time how lousy and useless I am.

Thank you all. You’re the best (even if I never told you this before).

Diolch yn fawr iawn!


Tatjana, that’s great. I’m really pleased to hear you are starting to relax. Don’t tell yourself you are lousy and useless - nothing could be further than the truth. I am sure that there are other people your age, who went through the same system in Slovenia, who don’t remember a word of, for example, Italian, today. And honestly, your English is great. It’s amazing that you learned all of that without visiting an English-speaking country.

You have worked incredibly hard, and I am personally sure that you have progressed far more than you think you have, and also that you will do much better once you relax!

Pob lwc!


First week of going from the scratch (back to Basics) again

Now here we are. This is not actually a progress report but rather a result of going to the basics again and doing a revision of what I’ve went trhough already twice or even 3 times this time with measuring how much I actually do correct and how much wrong.

I went through first 6 lessons (both parts of lesson 6 aswell) and so far so good. Among 1040 things (sentences) to be produced (if I didn’t perhaps forget to mark some things) there were only 71 wrong in which I counted also mistakes when I didn’t soften the werb or I said ddim instead of dim (for dim byd) and such little things. This put me to average of 93 % of all 6 lessons correct done. The most wrong things said were 16 in Lesson 6-1 what proves (for now) it really is quite hard lesson in deed but this time I took it lightly and didn’t mind too much about mistakes. I also have to say (what seams normal with already 4th repetition) pause button was not needed. I usually had to wait for Cat and Iestyn to say their part.

So result of the week work through is 93 %
I was only once below 89 % (it was in Lesson 6-1)

With daily listening to Radio Cymru and speaking practices the week of revision was done. Now to the new revision week. I’m at home this week so it surely can be more of listening and learning and I’m looking forward to it.

I’m sorry I still am not able to chat via Skype as I still didn’t manage to get new computer but I have no doubt this will come to quite soon, too.


Or even four, by some people’s view: Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, and Montenegrin.

I’ll try to say in Welsh what I used to tell people in my Serbo-Croatian class:

Dw i wedi dysgu pedwar iaith am bris un!

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Ah, učili ste srpsko-hrvatski onda? :slight_smile: Vrlo zanimljivo.

Oh, and what we’ve learnt is quite different from what people in those 4 republics are speaking now. Montenegrians are the closest to Serbians though.

I suppose Max Weinreich would understand the situation :smile: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_language_is_a_dialect_with_an_army_and_navy

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Hello Tatjana,

Thank you for the very beautiful and useful information you sent me on Slovenia,


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O no, it doesn’t go for the dialect here. They are (at least two) different languages with very similar basics and were officially recognized once. Well, I believe I (among all exYugoslav inhabitants in all 6 (former) republics) should know this the best. We’re still living together in a way and I tend to be one of those mixtures (by blod) aswell.

I’m not too keen to their current vocabulary though as that from Serbo-Croatian learning is anchored deep in my (our) soul. I don’t hold Serbo-Croatian as foreign language though. It’s almost like my native language as we dealt and spoke it daily and many times we still do. There are many people living in Slovenia from other ex-Yugoslav republics who many of them even today don’t speak Slovene or they speak it not so good so we rather adjust to talk to them in their language however caution is needed theese days as I’ve said before. So, when you tend to talk in Serbo-Croatian to someone from Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia or Montenegro, you first politely explain you’re keen to talk Serbo-Croatian and not their (pure) language and they might understand. If not explained, you can get into sirious (and unmendable) dispute. Believe me, I’ve indirectly got into one years ago so I know exactly what I’m talking about.

Oh, thank you for replying back to me. I already thought it wasn’t useful at all but I follow this site and I’ve read they arranged many things exactly for those who visited our country from abroad so I thought you might get all information from there. They might be in that matter more reliable then I would be. :slight_smile:

I’m happy and hope you’ll manage to find what you are searching for.

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And here we are at another finished week of revision. This time I was at home so there could be much more Cymraeg on the schedule then when I go to work.

This week my day usually began with listening practice while I had my coffee then I usually did a lesson. This week I began with Lesson 6B (just for the fun of it) and finished with Lesson 12 just some minutes ago. Results of measuring of how much I say correct and how much wrong are a bit worse then last week (Remember the average percentage was 93 %) but I still can be quite satisfied with the result. This week I ended with average percentage at 91 % with alltogether 1092 things to be said from which 96 were wrong. Most of wrong were those “the” and “a” thingys especially in this last - 12th lesson in which I just couldn’t figure out where to say “a gath” and where “a’r gath”. When I thought I am right I said it wrong (it’s "past tense lesson for those who forgot what was in this lesson all about). The most things said wrong were in this last - 12th lesson - 21 and the worst percentage I’ve managed was 87 % in Lesson 7. I didn’t use pause button though but had my usual problems with long sentences again.

So, result of this week work through is 91 %
I was twice below 89 % (in lesson 7 and 12). I didn’t mind for mistakes again (FINALLYYYYYY! :slight_smile: ) but I have to admit that I listened more carefully to each and every instruction @Iestyn gives in the lesson.

But, as I said, this week there was much more listening to Radio Cymru, especially to Bore Cothi and there was a lot of tweeting in Cymraeg especially at the end of the week when I tweeted even to Bore Cothi and my tweet was read with many wonderings how in Slovenia Radio Cymru is listened too and how I tweeted in Cymraeg. (I have to admit this was pleasant feeling in deed …). However I didn’t expect one single tweet would do such “booming” effect on tweeps. The tweet was this:

And based on this tweet I had quite long written (twitter) conversation yn Cymraeg this afternoon and yesterday.

So, since my computer is outstanding trash I decided to throw myself into writing wilderness what surely is easier (I am aware of this) then speaking since you have time to think, to check the possibilities, to check (even if it’s not always 100 % correct) on Google Translate if something is written right (regarding spelling), you can open word book or even SSiW guide to courses and take a look in there. But anyway. It was fun and interesting thing to do. I did it many times but never as long and with such varity of answers (yup, had to answer questions too) then this time. However I always payed attention to use primarly the words and structures of sentences I’ve learnt through SSiW and if there really was something I couldn’t completely say/answer with only those, then I checked vocab book to determine the word I need to know/write down.

Well, I can mark this week as successful again and now … with less time then this week as I’m returning back to work … I’ll go further to new week of revision.


I hate to sound critical but I think, Tatjana, you may have been too strict with yourself. I believe Aran’s guideline is that if you get about 80% correct you are doing fine and it is time to move forward to the next lesson. No need to revise to make it perfect, you can keep moving forward, Dal Ati!

Yes, this WILL feel uncomfortable and the discomfort is part of the learning process. Trust the process and let your subconscious mind do the hard work,

I have moved forward after only getting about 70% (or even less) right on a lesson and the bits I missed tend to fall into place a few lessons later (the backlog in my mind catches up with the material in its own time). Maybe I am playing a high-risk game moving forward so fast (I started course 1 at Christmas after many decades of only very casual, slow and incomplete Welsh learning attempts) but a tutor on Wednesday called me “rhugl” (fluent), even though I am not fully fluent yet by a long way so I guess I must be doing something right.

The percentages you have been acheiving are excellent - just keep moving forward and no need to worry at all. It will all fall into place in its own time.


Tatjana, ti wedi gweithio yn galed! Da iawn ti! You should be flying high with those results - I think that’s fantastic!

I don’t do Twitter, so I must admit I don’t understand all of that, but it looks impressive!


You (and not just you, but ALL OF YOU) have the right to be critical and, well, this is not my beginning. You could read here and elswhere how much of material I went through and although I’ve pushed through I had a feeling I can not progress at all. Atempts of talking in Cymraeg through Skype made me even more aware this everything what I’m doing is nothing good. Don’t understand me wrong though. The system is great and i tried to obey it as much as I could but that’s me in this system who does all lousy load of wrong work. And yes, you’re right, I am strict to myself. I’m still learning how not to be, but well, here we are.

Believe me, if you’d go through the Course 1 already for the 4th time (this is how many times I went through it) you’d do it 1000 % not 100 % correct, what only shows something is terribly wrong with me and not with the system.

This revision is actually the atempt to convince myself that everything actually isn’t so bad and that I FINALLY STOP moaning upon myself and my mistakes.

I’ve read your “story” and it’s inspring in deed but since I have no chance to go in “wilderness” I probably will never acheave the level you and many more here did. This doesn’t mean I won’t put all my effort to at least learn to understand what someone says or writes and to say some simple things. Further then that I probably have no hope to come. I’ve learnt many languages, yes, but everything is far from even good. It has to be considdered that English I’m using and learning already for my entire life with almost no chance to speak it and thanks to Internet a bit more chance to write in it so that’s why I can (at least write) English as good as I do. But it’s approximately 35 (or40) years which took me to this level. 35 years people! …

OK, moaning ended … this was just for the record and the purpose of those revision weeks. I also have to say that I wasn’t as careful learner before when gone through the lessons as I should be so this time I’m actually putting all my senses to attention when doing lessons.

Umm … well, that’s it …

Well, thank you @AnnaC I’m actually very well grounded and know this doesn’t mean much but it’s a pleasant begiining and surprise.

In the square is the same tweet twice. First is the data how many times it was retweeted what means was shared with others so more people could read it. So, it was shared 7 times.

The second data tells you how many times it was favourited what means how many people liked it. (similar to “like” on Facebook). It was favourited by 11 people and with third from the right I had quite long written conversation today.

Oh, boy. Now I feel like I’d overpraised myself with that “report” …

No, Tatjana, this is completely incorrect, and a very damaging belief for you to hold.

No-one would get 100%, however many times they did it.

Iestyn and I wouldn’t get 100% (and I wrote it!).

It’s designed that way.

I would expect a first language Welsh speaker to get about 95-97% right most of the time.

The message here for you is that you have learnt the material well enough.

The only thing stopping you from progressing through the course is your self-limiting belief that anything less than 100% shows that something is ‘wrong’ with you.

When you believe us, and carry on through the rest of the courses, moving on whenever you hit about 70% right, you will discover that you are becoming a Welsh speaker :sunny:


Week 3 of revision

It’s 2:33 Tuesday morning and I’m sitting here drinking my instant cappuccino and waiting for the last big thing on E3 gaming Expo - Sony press conference and I just remembered I didn’t do last week’s wrap up of my revision week yet, so here we go …

This week was not so much packed with Cymraeg as it was previous one however I managed to squeeze at least lessons inbetween traveling to and from work and resting at home (a bit lazying as it was about 28 - 30 °C during the day). Well, but my thoughts were constantly pondering Cymraig phrases even when I didn’t have intention to do that. So, well, here we are.

The result of this week is a bit worse then both before but I finally realize it’s not panic at all. I have to admit that most mistakes were made because I was not always entirely focused to the sentences and this for changing tensens quite often made me think too long or just couldn’t remember the sentence so I could say it correctly. So the most mistakes were 27 twice but the number of mistakes never gone under 10 unfortunately.

There’s actually not much more to tell. The highest result I’ve reached this time was 93 % in Lesson 14 and the lowest was 84 % 3 times - in Lesson 13, 15 and 18. I mostly did my lessons in the evening so this can very well contribute to worse result as I was quite tired already (so much about learning better when being tired (discussed in one another topic)).

So, the wrap up of this week’s work through is 88 %
I was 3 times below 89 % (as I’ve said already). Despite it’s the worst percentage so far I put some excuses into my brains and didn’t mind particularly about that. There were alltogehter 1087 things to be said and I said 129 of tem wrong - puting into this acount also those wrong “dd” or similar stuff.

Since my life will be too short to do all things which I’m interested in and my day should be 299999 :smiley: hours long I didn’t manage to squize a lesson in yesterday as we have once a year E3 gaming event on the schedule right now but I might just go for 2 lessons tomorrow and the loss will be substituted. Otherwise, this week I’m expecting the same sort of activities as I had previous one since I’m at work. Here are last 5 lessons to be going through and it will really be interesting to see the result of those 5 at the end of the week. Can it go even worse or I might surprise myself with better result as it was last week’s. Let’s see.

I know it’s completely off topic and not respected from many but here’s the sneak peek of what I’m watching just right now …


Happy gaming season if you’re (by any chance) a gamer besides of linguist too. :slight_smile:

From measuring to actual acheavement - small but signifficent for me.

And :sunny: I (as I’ve promissed) won’t moan today.

Cruising across the forum here and taking part of many discussions I all of a sudden realized I can (but even if in small terms) help people with simple questions about how to say or pronounce this and that or what’s the difference inbetween some (similar) words etc.

Well, I believe when you’re capable to asist others even if with small thingys, you’re really getting somewhere in the process of learning and I believe this can be marked as some kind (but if even small) progress which I’ve just acheaved recently.