Repeated annoyances

Welsh General / Questions
#1

I’m now on lesson 22 in Ch.1 but I am still getting tripped up on the same things from earlier lessons and it’s getting to be really annoying so I need a rant lol

  1. Why do we sometimes say ‘do’n i ddim’ and other times ‘wnes i ddim’ for I didn’t? (I often get it the wrong way round so is it really ok if I do)
  2. For some reason unless I physically say I have done/I have learnt I miss out the ‘wedi’
  3. Word order is usually very straightforward thankfully but I get caught out when using ‘dweud wrth’ with rhywbeth diddorol.
  4. The whole ‘to tell’ - ‘dweud wrth’ he said/she said my mother/father/brother/sister said.
  5. Bod/bov/bot/vod/bo - ‘that’
  6. Past tense of ‘want’ with he/she/I/my father etc
  7. I shouldn’t - ddylen i ddim, changes to na ddylen i ddim - is the na another version of bod/bot/vod etc?
  8. The differences in ‘need to’ with various people
  9. the various softening of words after vowels (I think)
  10. The fact that there is no specific word for yes and no, it throws me every time and those little words can mess up a whole sentence lol.
  11. Lesson 22 is what has prompted me to write this post, I don’t get why we say ‘does neb yn moyn’ for nobody wants when I thought it would just be neb yn moyn.
    And I’m now thrown by Did you have? (get) in 16 - Gest ti? and have you had? - wytti wedi cael’ but I suppose like the rest of the lessons I will soon get used to it.

Rant over, thanks and if anyone can offer and enlightenment/hints/tips I will be forever grateful, though I know it’s just a case of practice and I will get used to it eventually.

Diolch yn fawr!
Nikki

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#2

I ACTUALLY KNOW the answer to question 1 #breakthroughmoment … ‘do’n y ddim’ is more like ‘I wasn’t [doing that]’ and ‘wnes y ddim’ is more like ‘I didn’t [do that]’. The latter refers to something at a specific moment, the former to a more general ongoing activity.

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#3

As a further comment, this sort of thing is explained more in the original courses than in the new levels.

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#4

Hello!! Welcome, croeso! Good for you for asking the question!

Why do we sometimes say ‘do’n i ddim’ and other times ‘wnes i ddim’ for I didn’t? (I often get it the wrong way round so is it really ok if I do)

As has been said by @rebecca, she’s spot on :slight_smile:

For some reason unless I physically say I have done/I have learnt I miss out the ‘wedi’
Word order is usually very straightforward thankfully but I get caught out when using ‘dweud wrth’ with rhywbeth diddorol.

Bod/bov/bot/vod/bo - ‘that’

They’re all versions of bod
So “bov” is “bo fi”, the d has been dropped.
Same with bot - “bo’ ti”
“vod” is “fod e” - don’t worry too much about why at the moment - it comes from “ei fod e”

I shouldn’t - ddylen i ddim, changes to na ddylen i ddim - is the na another version of bod/bot/vod etc?

Na does indeed mean “that”. So it’s “that I shouldn’t”

the various softening of words after vowels (I think)

treiglad meddal (soft mutation) does happen after vowels in certain situations. Don’t worry about this - if you miss this it’s not the end of the world (my fiancee does all the time and she went to a Welsh language school and her mum is a Welsh speaker)

The fact that there is no specific word for yes and no, it throws me every time and those little words can mess up a whole sentence lol.

Yes and no are tough - it took me a while to get used to changing my yes no.
If you’re asked a question - “Wyt ti’n hoffi cathod?” (Do you like cats?) you say I do or I don’t (Ydw or nac ydw). “Wyt ti’n mynd i Gaerdydd?” (Are you going to Cardiff?) ydw (i am).

Lesson 22 is what has prompted me to write this post, I don’t get why we say ‘does neb yn moyn’ for nobody wants when I thought it would just be neb yn moyn.

Does neb kinda means - there isn’t anybody - so there isn’t anybody wanting a cat - does neb yn moyn cath (can you tell I’ve just bought kittens?! :smile:)

I hope this helps. I haven’t answered all your questions (sorry about that) because I’ve done the Northern course, so I wasn’t 100% certain on the structure of lesson 22 southern.

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#5

That’s the real secret…:slight_smile:

Whenever a new language doesn’t match exactly to a language you already speak, it’s natural to want to ‘make sense’ of it - which we often try to do by trying to map it more directly, with more control, to the language we already speak.

If you try to do this by making lists and attempting to remember rules, it can become quite a painful process.

If you let it flow… by carrying on giving your brain the exposure it needs to make the connections for itself… it can end up feeling easier (and less stressful, if you can trust the process!)… :slight_smile:

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#6

One thing I find helpful when worrying about getting the words/expressions exactly right is to think of how it sounds when a non-native English speaker sounds when she/he uses slightly wrong words. That doesn’t ever stop me from being impressed by their language skills (and actually, only a very annoying and ungenerous person would huff about it), and often it is quite endearing. Generally it is great just to be able to chat. So I try to reassure myself that this is how people will receive my own inept efforts to speak their language, and remember that anyone who is really bothered by it is probably not someone I’d want to be pals with :stuck_out_tongue:

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#7

Also, none of the issues above would be inept. You’d be perfectly understood :slight_smile:

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#8

No, this is a misconception - the SM has nothing to do with preceding vowels, and they do not cause it.

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#9

Na means that…not, and the ddim in na ddylen ni ddim simply repeats the not, and is indeed optional - you can just say na ddylen ni for that I shouldn’t as well.

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#10

For simplicity “na” = that was just an easy way of explaining it. Like the interview with Yws Gwynedd that you shared, Na can replace mai surely?

Yep, vowels are not the issue, however, TM happens after “i”, so again, without going into too much detail, if it helps with these lessons to think that (which it did for me), surely it’s better just to carry on with that and not worry about further complications?

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#11

Ah - that’s a different na, Anthony!

That’s the na that comes before nouns, and does indeed mean that. And is equivalent to mai (standard and N) or taw (S)

But the na that comes before verbs (like na ddylen ni (ddim)…) is a different word, and means that…not…

:slight_smile:

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#12

Thank you Rebecca, Anthony and Gareth.
You’re right about when we hear non native speakers, we can usually work out the meaning even if not completely grammatically correct.

I’ve been living in Bulgaria for the past 10 years and still speak the language like a kid from class 1 in primary school, so I have vowed to learn Welsh more fluently as we prepare for our move there later in the year. Even though everyone keeps telling me all the Welsh speak English anyway, I would still rather learn it so it will hopefully give me a better chance of getting a job. I think it’s easier to learn a language when you have an end goal.

Ok I won’t worry so much about these things, and keep going with the flow :slight_smile:

…and Aran, how did I know you would say something like that :wink: - thanks.

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#13

Haha, ok ok I’m following your point. Just reassure me, I wasn’t a million miles off was I?

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#14

No no Anthony…you were def on the right track - it’s NOT your fault that there are 5 (count 'em: five) different words spelt na in that pesky dictionary, now is it?! :joy:

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#15

Someone took “if it ain’t broke…” A bit far with na didn’t they?

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#16

Yeah - totally dros ben llestri really… :confused:

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#17

I don’t know about the na before nouns… can you give an example? I know the “'na” after nouns that means “that” as opposed to “this”.

Thanks!

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#18

Yes:

Pwy oedd yn deud na Ioan Gruffudd oedd yn dod?
Who told (you) that (it was) Ioan Gruffudd who was coming?

Mae’n amlwg na gwaethygu mae’r sefyllfa
It’s clear that the situation is worsening

(Remembering of course in the second one that VNs are nouns)

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#19

For the avoidance of confusion, a) I believe that mai is perfectly acceptable here (in the north) and b) we use taw in both places in the south!

Back to the original post:

You’ve had explanations fo most of that, and Aran has told you not to worry, and Rebecca has even told you to consider hearing non-native speakers speaking English, so most of what I would say has already been said.

But you do need to realise that getting to Challenge 22 is a massive achievement, and gives you a huge amount of Welsh already. It;s not surprising that some of it isn;t quite stuck yet! Even if still doesn’t stick as you carry on through the course, you will find that the pressure of speaking in teh real world will often cement stuff that didn;t quite make sense to you on the lessons, because it will suddenly become obviously useful.

So keep going, and you will have loads of Welsh by the time you move here.

BTW - thank you so much for being so determined. When you do arrive, you will find (like my English mother did) that there are many monoglot English speaking people here with a stinking attitude towards the Welsh language. Every person who learns Welsh is a blow to that attitude, and helps make that attitude more and more abnormal. Just by making an effort, you have made a difference. By making the effort you have to reach where you are, you will make a huge difference. By insisting on using your new lnaguage (and after putting in so much effort to learn it, I know you will!) you will be amking a genuine difference to the future of our (our = yours and mine!) beautiful language. Diolch yn fawr!

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#20

Yes indeed. Na, mai and taw are all interchangeable!

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