Question re Course 1 Gwers 11 (Southern), regarding "sut"

Welsh General / Questions
#1

Near the end of this lesson (when we are practicing “wnaeth e”), one of the sentences is “He saw how you want to do it.” I think I am hearing “Wnaeth e weld sut i ti moyn ei wneud e” for the answer. I was expecting “ti’n” instead of “ti”. Am I hearing wrong or am I not understanding something?

Do we say “sut i” like we say “barod i?” For example, we say “Mae fe’n gwybod sut i weithio” for “He knows how to work”. That makes sense to me because it is “how to work”. But it’s not “how to” in the sentence in my question above. I can learn it parrot fashion, but I’d rather understand what’s going on…

(On an unrelated side note, I was just listening to Radio Cymru while eating lunch (tea-time in Wales, I think!). I could pick out just enough words to know it sounded interesting, but of course I’m nowhere near being able to follow the story. Something about children, learning, thinking, and school. Simultaneously frustrating and motivating! :slight_smile: )

Diolch for any help!

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#2

I’m sorry for that. I’m a bit confused too, but you’ll hear this “sut ewt ti” all the time, more often then “sut ti’n” Even now, after so much material going through I’m not 100 % sure what’s right so I hold both for OK. Whatever I say I say … and don’t worry too much. But thank you for asking because I’d like to know this too and was wondering about this yesterday (again) too.

Well, @Iestyn (as this is Southern Course) we need some explanation. Diolch. :slight_smile:

#3

Shwmae Anna.
What you’re hearing is “sut wyt ti…”, which is normally spoken as a question (how are you…), but it is also often used to say “how you are”, so you’re literally saying “He saw how you are wanting to do it”.
That said, your response “Wnaeth e weld sut ti’n moyn ei wneud e” wasn’t wrong either. You will, over time, hear many different variations to say sentences like these. So if you come across any of these slight variations, no need to worry. It’s just a bit of added colour to this beautiful language that you are free to use if you wish!

#4

I think the original question was over why the “yn” (or “'n”) appeared to missing from in front of “moyn”?

That is, why was the “answer”,
“Wnaeth e weld sut wyt ti moyn ei wneud e”
Instead of
"Wnaeth e weld sut wyt ti’n moyn ei wneud e.

Now, I have not listened to the particular bit to check, but “moyn” is an unusual verb!
In circumstances where “yn” would be used in front of other verbs, some people will use “yn” in front of “moyn”, and others won’t, with preferences differing from person to person. This is very unusual amongst verbs, as you obviously realise.

This may be due to the influence of the way the similar meaning “eisiau” is used (again, without the “yn”, perhaps along with a tendency for “yn” to be caught up in the “m” sound at the beginning of “moyn”.)

I would suggest that if you are hearing correctly, Iestyn has either dropped the “yn” (perhaps purposely to give you a different form, perhaps just because it came out of his mouth like that!), or it’s been taken over by the “m” in moyn, or a bit of both.

Either way, it demonstrates how it us pronounced “out there”, so good to have it in!

Oh, and very good listening, and if you can recognise and understand repeating patterns within the language to that extent, (otherwise known as grammar, but never mind… :wink: ) you obviously are understanding what is going on!

Hope this helped you to undestand what was going on a bit, anyway!

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#5

Yah. I’ve read through original post once again and you’re right.

Sorry for my wrong explanation @AnnaC but it still isn’t quite useless I believe. :slight_smile:

#6

@faithless78 Thank you for this! I’m hearing it wrong! It comes up again in the next lesson, and I heard it wrong there, too…I will go back and listen again. It makes perfect sense that it’s “wyt” instead of “i”. I have noticed in many lessons that Iestyn and Cat do sometimes say “wyt” and sometimes don’t, so I understand that both are ok. I just didn’t hear it as “wyt” in this instance. It’s interesting that the verb “wyt” seems to get dropped often when we aren’t using the question form. We don’t seem to do that with “dw i” or (at least not so far) with “mae fe’n/hi’n”.

@owainlurch Thanks for the information and encouragement. I didn’t know that using “yn” would be optional for the verb moyn (or eisiau). I appreciate your explanation! Yes, it’s definitely interesting to hear how things can run together at normal spoken speed (I sometimes wonder if Iestyn’s normal is faster than most :slight_smile: )

@tatjana Thanks for your contributions - you are never useless :slight_smile:

Diolch yn fawr everyone - I am no longer confused and I learned something new!

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#7

Just popping in to say that I don’t need to say anything. A answered!

One thing, though, on the use of yn with moyn and eisiau. yn should (grammatically) always be used with moyn, but as was said earlier, it often gets left out, probably because the n gets swallowed by the m of moyn, and we’re just a bit too lazy to make it stand out. I remember first recording the “moyn” lesson, and having to check on the correct grammar, as I tend to leave the yn out with moyn.

As for eisiau, there should never be an yn with eisiau (=to want). There is a time when an yn appears, but that is “yn eisiau” in phrases like “mae 'na un yn eisiau” - “We are one short”. Northerners may never come across that saying, southern SSiWers will probably see the link with “isie” to need - there is one (still) needed.

Oh yes - AnnaC - don’t worry about “listening again” unless you really want to. Real life Welsh is all about the rough and ready “first listen” being enough to get the gist of what’s being said. You will find it more useful to push on with lessons than to go back to pick up details, and as you can say more, you’ll start to understand more without needing to know / learn subtleties. It certainly sounds like you’re getting there already, so keep on doing what you’re doing!

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#8

@Iestyn Thanks very much for the grammar lesson/clarification and encouragement. I know we’re not supposed to fuss about the details, but I can’t help being a detail-oriented person :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: I don’t want to think I’m saying “i” when I’m really saying “wyt”!

This makes sense. Off to do the next lesson…

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