Phonetic Translation

Welsh General / Questions
#1

Hi ffirindau!

I’m a member of St Mary’s RC Cathedral Choir Newcastle Upon Tyne and this year to honour St. David the choir master was very keen for us to sing V 2 of Guide Me O Thou Great Redeemer in Welsh at the Sunday Mass before St David (26th Feb). (RC Church is interested in all things European - and the Geordies love the Welsh!) I have done a phonetic version of verse 2, bearing in mind that I will be telling English people with no Welsh at all how to sing it. We are singing verse 2 which is

. Agor y ffynhonnau melus
’n tarddu i maes o’r Graig y sydd;
colofn dân rho’r nos i’m harwain, a rho golofn niwl y dydd;
rho i mi fanna, rho i mi fanna, fel na bwyf yn llwfwrhau,
fel na bwyf yn llwfwrhau.

My phonetic take on this is

Agg-oar err vin-hon-eye mellis
Un tar-thee e mice oar gr-eye-g i seeth
Kolofan dan roar norse eem har-wine
A roar golovan n-wheel u deeth
Roy i me van-a, Roy i me van-a,
Vel na boy-eef un-loo-voor-hi
Vel na boy-eef un-loo-voor-hi

Does anyone have any ways that that this can be improved? “LL” is a particular problem when writing phonetically.

Our website is https://www.stmaryscathedral.org.uk

Thanks!

#2

I understand “cl” is sometimes used by folks unable to pronounce “ll”; that may be useful?

#3

That sounds good - get them to say CL then try to soften the C. Thanks

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#4

Don’t try this at home folks. =-0

2 Likes
#5

Agg-oar uh fun-hon-eye mellis
Un tar-thee e mice oar gr-eye-g i seeth
Kolofan dan roar norse eem har-wine
A roar golovan newl u deeth
Roy i me van-a, Roy i me van-a,
Vel na boy-eef un hloo-voor-hi
Vel na boy-eef un hloo-voor-hi

I find hl is a better approximation than cl for the ll :slight_smile:

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#6

Yes - in my experience, it’s very hard to get people to drop the ‘c’ if you go the ‘cl’ route - but aiming for ‘hl’, while less immediately familiar, does a much better job of getting the various moving pieces in something like the right place… :slight_smile:

#7

Wouldn’t that be ‘kolov’n’? And why ‘norse’ for ‘nos’?
As I try to progress further, I realise how hard it is!

#8

I think in formal Welsh kolovn would be correct, so maybe for a hymn you have a point, but in normal spoken welsh an extra vowel often gets introduced - kolovan in the north, koloven in the south.

Norse takes advantage of the English silent r to lengthen the o slightly, but you are right, this whole exercise is fraught with difficulties. I suppose that’s why standard phonetic alphabets exist. :-/

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#9

It is bad enough for choristers to have to learn Latin, German, Cymraeg etc… having to learn that horrid phonetic alphabet as well is surely too much to ask!! :smile:

#10

aɪ θɪŋk juː meɪ biː raɪt

2 Likes
#11

Perhaps as @henddraig lives in Yr Alban she has forgotten the English silent r as she doesn’t hear it there.

#12

I do, as my house-mate may have lived here most of her life, but was about 11 on arrival and never, ever picked up the local accent! So I have no excuse. I see an ‘r’ and react as if it was Cymraeg!

#13

On the plus side, they should be ok with the "na"s. Definitely part of the Geordie dialect :smile: I double take every time my sister comes out with it. BTW, @edwardr42000 I’m originally from Denton Burn, Newcastle and went food shopping there with my Cymraeg Co-op Bwyd bag last month.