This is a Welsh dialect thread, but I’ve always wondered about how things work in the Netherlands. I always thought there were lots of regional dialects and even regional languages in the Netherlands and wondered if this was linked to why the ductch have a reputation for being good at learning languages, as well as the fact that there are lots of neighbours with different languages?. I just looked on wikipedia to see what the reality actually was and it says:
“Dutch dialects and regional languages are not spoken as often as they used to be. Recent research by Geert Driessen shows that the use of dialects and regional languages among both Dutch adults and youth is in heavy decline. In 1995”
Are there regional languages or dialects in the netherlands that we should think about?. What is the opinion/attitude towards these?
As with all languages, there are many different dialects in Dutch, but, as you mention, they are in decline. There are a few major groupings: Western, Eastern, Southern, Limburgs, Flemish - very rough, this. Dutch is no different to all other languages in this regard, I think.
I grew up in the south, and when I was young, the Western dialect around Haarlem was considered the proper way to speak, and the written language was based on Western and Southern dialects, in the main, and Flemish to some extent. If you used your own dialect, it was frowned upon. Jokes were made about Flemish speakers by everyone, I am ashamed to say.
Luckily, the situation is very different now, there is much more acceptance of regional variations than when I was young.
Should regional variations be taken into account for the Dutch course? Of course. However, there is a standard version of Dutch based on the written language, understood by all. If I speak in my local dialect (I can hold a basic conversation still), outside my region of Brabant, I would not be understood by everybody. Flemish and Limburg dialects are very hard to understand by those from other regions.
I think a lot of countries have frowned on regional variations in language; often considering it a sign of a lack of either intelligence or education - Britain certainly had that; well into the 80s it was rare to hear anything but Received Pronunciation on the television - especially when it comes to non-fiction.
I remember reading a short book- essay really- called something like the Scapegoating of Literary languages in Breton and Welsh. Saying how having a standard spoken and literary language was a natural, necessary thing, and that claims that the literary language differed excessively from dialects and are a baneful influence increase as languages go into decline. Mainly concerned with Welsh and Breton, but deals with and used examples from other languages. Interesting, but was only in the reading room of the library, so really only had a chance to scan it!
Cyfres Astudiaethau Achlysurol: 1. “Iaith Lenyddol Fel Bwch Dihangol yng Nghymru ac yn Llydaw”,
Occasional Studies Series: 1. “Literary Language as a Scapegoat in Wales and in Brittany”.
Can’t find a free copy - it’s on GWales for £2.00 - (tempted)
Just saw this as well published in 2013 - looks interesting?
Madeleine Adkins
“Will the real Breton please stand up? Language revitalization and the problem of authentic language”
Oh, well done! It must be it- I doubt there are two things with such similar names! Remember it is just an essay if you consider buying it - I will certainly be leaving it til I go to the Library again!
And yes, that other thing does look interesting- “speakers display a tendency to assess their own Breton as inferior, uneducated, and imperfect; paradoxically, these same speakers also evaluate literary or academic varieties and the neo-Breton of the school-learned speakers of the language as suspect.”
This may seem odd but I live in the north and 'm learning the southern dialect. I went to Welsh classes a few years ago and found the north dialect hard to pronounce due to it’s harsh sounds. I have family in the south but they don’t speak Welsh, well very little. But as I am thinking of moving south in the future thought I would learn south dialect here. And I do find it easier. But learning southern dialect in the north means I don’t get opportunity to practice speaking.
Have you tried? It really shouldn’t mean that! You are learning Welsh.
In fact, the extensive use of “nes i” etcetera means you will be using at least one important form generally thought of as Northern, anyway.
I find that using forms and words often called “Northern” doesn’t cause me any problems down here😉, and I find that people from the north usually understand me when I use words and forms often called “southern”! It’s all one language.
No I haven’t tried as don’t know many Welsh speakers here And those I know
aren’t interested to speak it sadly and make excuses. More worried it will confuse me more than anything else if I joined a group of Northern speakers or learners. Or I would confuse them. Anyway I can’t even get to local meet ups as most are evenings and Saturdays when I am working so not an issue.
My saying this may well not make you feel better at the moment, but it’s pretty normal for more people to speak Welsh with you as your own confidence in speaking Welsh increases!
Just a suggestion - have you thought of trying to get some practice done with a Skype partner?
That would always be good for anyone and would increase your confidence!
Please don’t worry about getting confused. I learned the southern version because we were planning to move to Cardiff, but nearly all my practice was with my partner and my in-laws, who are all from the north. You very quickly learn the different words for things (like calling a ‘baby’ a ‘bairn’ in English) and it isn’t much of an impediment at all. It is all Welsh - the differences are quite small in the great scheme of things.
I now regularly speak with a bit of Gog and a bit of De, and it’s not a problem to anybody (except those who are trying to work out where I’m from … usually they plump for Llanrwst, for some reason!)
I agree with Owain here - don’t worry about dialect - northerners will understand a ‘southern’ version of the language absolutely fine in the vast majority of cases. Whereabouts are you? It can take a bit of initial effort to find people to practise with, but they’re out there not too far away pretty much anywhere in the north…
I agree with every word of Sara’s posting! But I do have a theory that it is much easier if you get to practice with really fluent folk, not other learners who are unsure themselves. I may be wrong, but although a one-eyed man may lead the blind, it’s easier for someone with depth perception. I think it is a bit like that. You make a mistake, a natural speaker may well cotton on to what you meant, or at least find a way to ask which doesn’t frighten you off totally!
I wouldnt worry too much. I live in Connahs Quay and am learning northern but i have chatted with a few from South Wales who are learning southern and we understand each other perfectly well. There are a few differences obviously but in terms of practising i understand people when they use gyda instead of efo or gen, hoffi instead of licio, llaeth instead of llefrith etc…and importantly they will understand you. In a fortnight there’s a mini bootcamp in caernarfon with three southern learners and five northern for example. I am sure it will be fine.
There is a welsh learners group who meet at theatre clwyd every wednesday morning, a monday evening meet at saith seren in wrecsam, another in coedpoeth and today i went to one in connahs quay.
Thanks! I didn’t know about the group meeting at Theatr Clwyd. I knew about the Saith Seren meetings, but as I teach in the evenings I can’t get to those. But I could go along to Theatr Clwyd one sometime and would love to know some more.
Anyway I can’t even get to local meet ups as most are evenings and Saturdays when I am working so not an issue.