You can tell me a 500 minute story about your uncle’s collection of stamps as long as you’re trying to stick to Welsh!
1 Like
jenny_white_378:
I > still feel like a burden etc.
I think the difference on Bootcamp is that everyone apart from one of the leaders has been and still is a learner. We have all been tongue tied. We have all been the least experienced. But I think Cat is right. Work out what is right for you and proceed along that path with confidence. Bootcamp isn’t the only way to get exposure to,the language.
2 Likes
For me online chat would be the only way except Bootcamp and then we’re finished.
Gee, I even don’t know any Cymraig people who would live in Slovenia what even if they actually speak Cymraeg or not at all. …
However chating with @brigitte yesterday I’ve realized (again) that it’s a long way to go to attend one bootcamp though.
@jenny_white_378: I think that the “I’m a burden” thing is very very common, but I don’t think it’s something that the “burdened” generally feel. Any first language speaker at a new speakers’ practice group is going to be there specifically to help people in exactly your situation, and any advanced learner will have been in your position quite recently and been helped in the same way as they are helping you.
Are there any specific situations where you feel particularly bad? I wonder whether the problem is often that people assume that you are happy unless you say otherwise, rather than being sensitive to the particular challenges of being an early learner. Because of this, many people who are excitied by your progress, pleased to be a part of it, surprised at how well you follow some of the conversations, etc, don;t say that, and leave you feelng that maybe they would enjoy themselves more without you. The problem is that once someone becomes “aware” (however wrongly) that they are a “burden”, its easy to become really sensitive to any signs that thye are right ( and miss all the signs that they are competely wrong), and that’s where a spiral starts that ends up with them no longer enjoying themselves, and ultimately giving up (or rather just missing “this one week” which turns into a few wekks, etc).
Have a word with the leader of your group, explain how you feel, and ask what can be done to reassure you, but also to let other people know that you don’t want them to spoil their night to help you, but rather to specifically include you in some stuff, and allow you to drift, and enjoy their conversation without actually understanding everything.
It must be really intimidating if everyone is more advanced than you, but it’s also a great opportuntiy to learn from people who will be more understanding than first language speakers (who have never knowingly learnt Welsh). And one day soon, someone will join who is not as advanced as you, and it will be you doing the intmidating!
I think it’s more easy to be a “burden” in real life, but even then, only by being totally insensitive to others. Most first language speakers will be excited to hear your faltering attempts at Welsh, and interested in your progress as you improve. Of course, if you insist on taking up 20 minutes of their time every time you meet them, even when they are obviously busy at something else, etc, then you will become a burden, but you can easily overcome this by asking them first “have you got 5 minutes” etc.
Bootcamp is the same. Most first-timers will feel at some stage that they are the weakes Welsh speaker there, and that it is they athat are holding the group back, but as long as everyone is involved in helping each other, and that you don;t go after every single tiny detail that you haven’t understood, then we’ve got a whole week tofill, so spening an extra 5 minutes helping you from time to time is just another part of the fun!
I think this is a vitally important point for conversation groups to take on board, because a succesful groups has a big problem. As the original members keep talking, they improve, they become comfortable with wach other, they develop specific “practice group” language, and become genuine Welsh speakers, just as they wanted to, and just as the group was set up for. But, for a new member, there’s this group of succesful speakers, way abve the new members’ standard, who are far more confortable, and know all the language… Does anyone have any thoughts on how to integrate new members without making too much of a song and dance (a bit frightening for the newby!), and not forcing the existing members to become teachers and forget their social night!
4 Likes
A common misconception, Elizabeth! Yes, I have spoken Welsh since the age of 3 or so, but I still learn a lot, quite often from bootcampers and from questions / comments on the forum. We are all learners, but we are at different points along the continuum!
On the subject of bootcamp, @JustinandEirwen, the no-English rule is the only strict rule (just about the only rule, actually) on Bootcamp. And yes, that does include “Sut mae deud ?” It may seem a bit artificial to some, but then the whole bootcamp concept is an artificial construct. There in nowhere in Wales where a new speaker can go and use their Welsh without being in the artificial situation of talking to someone in the least comfortable of the two common languages. As a logical idea, it’s ridiculous, really - why struggle with Welsh when you can use English? (There are plenty of reason to do, of course - I’m not looking for anyone to argue against that question!).
But, on bootcamp, we are reproducing the situation of learning foreign language X, and travelling to country X where few people speak English. The ability to use very little X-ish to convey a very wide range of needs, wants, ideas, even jokes and technical subjects. is a massive boost to the learner of X-ish, and a huge ice-breaker amongst the native X-ers. If you use a tranlsation of English, taken from a dictionary, and the local idiom is different, then you won’t be understood. If you talk around the subject, and get an understanding of the concept / idea / subject you are trying to get across, you will learn the proper local idiomatic way of saying things, without linking it specifically to the English phrase. This is learning to speak X-ish, rather than learning to translate what you are thinking in English.
You will rarely get a chance to do this with Welsh in real life, and doing it with other second language speakers will lead to some wrong patterns, some learner-ese, but that is not important. What is important is that it is breaking a bit of the link between your Welsh and your English, cutting the translation umbilical chord, and making the Welsh flow a bit more. As an example, I often struggle for technical words when speaking. It may be that I’m talking politics in English, or talking engineering in Welsh. In both cases I’ve learnt, and use, most of my vocabulary in the other language, and sometimes struggle to explain concepts in one or the other where there isn’t neccesarily a word, or where I don’t know the word. Once you have one area of life that you know better in Welsh than in English (one area may be just one phrase wihch encompasses your feeling / action etc better), then you are not just a new speaker, but can genuinely express yourself better in Welsh in certain circumstances.
More importantly, if you can speak going from concept to mouth movement without going through a process (however quick) of translation, then you will be open for the next stage of learning - that is learning in the same way as Aran or I learn, and in the same way as you learn new words / idea / viewpoints in your native language.
In other words, your no longer a “learner”, or a “new speaker”, your just a speaker of Welsh who has lots to explore!
8 Likes
Diolch Lestyn. That is how I feel!
I have stopped going to one meeting where there were only the 2 of us. The other one is very established and they are all very lovely to me and I went to one of their other meetings this week and enjoyed that.
I suppose the answer is to persist and get to know everyone and practice, practice and then with time I will feel like an established part of the group.
Jenny
2 Likes
Only my experience on our Skype group. I would have to reiterate we have learners at a range of stages. I have never felt anyone a burden. One learner in particular started attending from the commencement of doing course one - like as a total beginner. She had learned other languages and knew that immersion and incomprehension was part of the process. She attends every month - mostly just listening and absorbing (she has told us she is quite comfortable with this). We pretty much let the conversation flow around her but every now and then someone directs a question and she answers. Every month she has acquired new words and patterns. It is quite thrilling actually to hear the progress. Never a burden. But I think the fact that she has communicated her expectations helps us all feel comfortable.
The same would hold true for Bootcamp. Perhaps, what people don’t realise - because I certainly didn’t - is that Bootcamp doesn’t start in Welsh. Everyone moves into Canolfan and has a cuppa and then introduces themself in English first. So if you are super nervous and have only done the first course and have food allergies and haven’t slept in a dormitory since you were eighteen, you can kind of get that off your chest. Then the housekeeping is explained, so that everyone feels comfortable. After which you play an ice breaking game. It is after the game that the no English rule begins. And it is fine because you are not going into it cold.
We are recommended not to use dictionaries. But I suspect there may have been some sneaky word checking now and then. 
Also, in the car I travelled in most of the week we were doing road directions in Welsh. This did actually get a bit stressful times. But we were all adults so, you know, there was a point at which safety had to dictate. I didn’t feel so guilty when I realised others were using sat navs which certainly weren’t in Welsh. In fact, I felt more guilty for putting our poor driver who was a fairly new learner through the torment of my Welsh road directions. 
But it is all voluntary. You are not going to get a sign put around you neck or be beaten at the end of the day. You are all adults. You are there with a common purpose and it is amazing how much you can get across by miming. Especially when you have more experienced learners there to fill in the blanks. And of course, there are plenty of misunderstandings which seem super funny at the time. I have never laughed so much in my life.
Oh dear. I’m feeling homesick for Bootcamp now.
3 Likes
I have been meaning to put my experience of Bootcamp on here for the last couple of days and never quite getting round to it.
I was the person who travelled with Liz from Aber. I was definitely somewhere near (or actually at) the bottom of the class in terms of speaking Welsh and it was intimidating and nerve wracking at times. BUT, as long as you go along with a sense of humour and can avoid becoming despondent when you realise there are learners better than you then you WILL benefit from going, and have FUN at the same time.
I am the sort of person who always wants to have practiced, or done just ‘enough’ of something, so that when I actually have a go myself I don’t make a fool of myself. Bootcamp was the first time that I really threw caution to the wind and just jumped in… I am 46 and it taught me a MASSIVELY valuable lesson in life; and that was that I have missed out on so much because of my fear of just ‘letting go’ and having a go.
Everyone has one thing in common on Bootcamp and that is the experience of learning another language. However, it is useful to remind yourself that almost certainly they have been through the worry/nerves/embarrassment phase themselves. That means there is loads of empathy and support available for free!
I think my Welsh improved a tiny amount whilst actually on Bootcamp. But, about a month later I spoke to one of my fellow Bootcampers on the phone and she was really amazed at how much I had improved after Bootcamp. Having spent some time thinking about it I think that Bootcamp allowed me to get ‘over myself’, I did all the embarrassed stuff and it left me free to get on with learning. Being on Bootcamp pulled me through all those internalised fears etc and let me get on with learning.
Being with more advanced learners is actually a BIG BIG plus because you are have many more ‘mentors’ to help you get through the week 
13 Likes
This was also my experience.
Stu
3 Likes
Hi Andy,
Glad you joined in. I think you provided the first joke for the week with the dynes sglodion. After that we were all laughing so much that nothing mattered.
3 Likes
@jenny_white_378 - what a pity about the meeting where there were only 2 of you. In that situation, you know that the other person doesn;t mind, because they keep turning up for more! The flip side is, of course, that if you are uncomfortable for any reason, then you might begin to associate the discomfort with speaking Welsh, which would hold you back horribly!
I wonder if it would be worth contacting the other person in the 2 person meet-up, and exploring the possibility of meeting up again, this time with them knowing that you find their Welsh intimidatingly good? Only you can make that move, though, because you know whether it’s only the Welsh that was a priblem, or whether there just wasn;t the chemistry / comfort to make the experience useful to you.
But a message for everyone, never ever stop speaking Welsh with someone because you think they don’t like it. Ask them! That from-birth speaker who you think must be so bored of your limited Welsh may be loving the chance to use their Welsh with someone; may be appreciating some time making a difference in someone’s life; maybe fascinated by the learning process that they have never experienced / may look forward to helping your developing Welsh become something natural and beautiful… You will never truly know what the other person feels unless you ask!
4 Likes
I miss her too! 
For those not there on day one I managed to described a mermaid beach picture as half woman and half chip… mixing up my pysgod a sglodion…
Looking forward to seeing you in the summer!
2 Likes
It’ll be great!
A common misconception, Elizabeth! Yes, I have spoken Welsh since the age of 3 or so, but I still learn a lot, quite often from bootcampers and from questions / comments on the forum. We are all learners, but we are at different points along the continuum!
True we have an English as a second language group at our church and I learn heaps there too.
On my first evening at Bootcamp, I asked for chicken rather than ice in my ginger beer…mixing up my (cyw) iâr and my iâ.
4 Likes
They are the best Bootcamp moments…
I’m not adding anything useful to the thread, but I’ll comment anyway (no change there).
Having just arrived back from a bootcamp where I had to be one of the people (if not the person) with the weakest understanding-Welsh-superpowers, having a room of walking dictionaries was very very useful. I can’t imagine it being as much fun without Welsh superpowers being present. No-one other than me was remotely hard on me, and having lots of Welsh just meant there was more to learn. Never be the best player in the band, and all that (not that I’ve ever been close to being the best player in any band I’ve been in!).
If you’d asked me before if I’d like a bootcamp for unintimidating people whose Welsh isn’t great, I’d have said yes. Now I’d say categorically not
10 Likes
This would also be of great interest to me. I’m going to be in Wales in September, possibly into early October. If there are others interested in trying this idea out around that time period, I’d be happy to help with the organizing.
4 Likes
I’d be up for helping and participating, Patricia if we can get the blessing and advisory input of the Fab 4.
If it doesn’t work out though, we MUST meet up during your visit.
2 Likes
Felly. After just returning from the same bootcamp, where Kev the Wondersheep helped me immensely on our first challenge in Pwllheli by approaching complete strangers in the street that I was far too nervous to talk to and asking them (yn Gymraeg, obviously) if they would possibly mind helping us, I can safely say:
- he was without doubt not the weakest welsh speaker there
- At times he was one of the walking dictionaries of which he speaks
- It doesn’t matter how weak you think your “skills” are, just challenging yourself to not use the easy way out (yn Saesneg) will in quite a short time give you a previously unknown feeling of achievement and confidence
The week, for me, started as one of the most frightening and mentally challenging things I’ve ever done and ended feeling like I could probably do just about anything in Welsh.
There was a really wide range of abilities on this bootcamp and I think that helped immensely - if everyone had been complete beginners it would have been tough for any of us to progress. Those who had more Welsh in their vocabulary were a great help and a great laugh - trying to explain ‘new’ words with extended conversations in other words (some of which also turned out to be ‘new’ words) with some waving of arms and drawing of pictures was great fun and really helped us to relax and just absorb the language…
12 Likes